From: jbthoo@ucdavis.edu ( John Thoo ) Date: Tue, 4 Feb 92 21:23:59 PST Subject: SE/30 and color monitor: report I recently posted the following questions on IMD: >I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page >monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in >getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid? >What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale >monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be, >well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors? > >Are there any accelerator/8-bit combo cards for an SE/30 out there? >Or will I have to choose between speeding up my Mac or looking at >a color screen? I received quite a few responses to my queries (a couple of people actually responded *twice*), and I'd like to thank each and everyone who responded, especially: alex judkins <JUDKINSA@uno.cc.geneseo.edu>; David Herren <@mitvma.mit.edu:HERREN@MIDD.BITNET>; Greg Alton <grega@550sherb.lan.mcgill.ca>; Derek Fong <thewho@leland.Stanford.EDU>; Andy Francke <AFRANCKE@HMCVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>; Wade Williams <wadew@ducvax.auburn.edu>; unsigned <@BUACCA.BU.EDU:ccmlh@buacca.BITNET>. (I hope I didn't mix up anyone's name and e-mail address :-) SUMMARY OF RESPONSES: Quite simply, almost everyone who responded to my query said that using a color monitor DOES NOT slow down an SE/30; everyone said to "go for the color"! The RasterOps board was recommended most often, each time with the caveat that it is quite expensive; no particular monitor was recommended a notable number of times. Unfortunately, no one had any specific info re the availability of an accelerator/8-bit combo card for the SE/30, but in light of the fact that using a color monitor doesn't slow down the SE/30 appreciably, I guess that not learning about such a card doesn't really matter. The following is a compilation of all the responses I received, sans their e-mail headers. I suspect that the info-mac moderators will snip off this section and archive it in /info-mac/report. Again, thanks to all who took the time to respond to my query. I hope that this summary will prove useful to someone. --John. ===============================cut here================================== I saw your question on info-mac. I'll tell you about my particular experience, with the standard disclaimers. I have an SE/30 with a RasterOps 264 (24bit color) board and the Apple 13" monitor. The RO board is not accelerated. Regarding speed: I find that the SE/30 with color is noticebly faster than a IIcx or IIsi, depending on the particular memory config. on the latter machine. I believe it is so fast because the external display boards are designed for the SE/30's PDS slot, which I understand is significantly faster than the NuBus. Take home message: Definitely buy the external video card for the SE/30. There are several on the market and you wont be disappointed. The machine will be quite fast, and having the 9" BW internal screen is an added advantage. Also, if you find yourself doing some boring application that doesn't require color and needs to run really fast, you can just switch down to 1bit depth on the external display and the whole system is just as fast as the normal SE/30. p.s. the SE/30 is, in my opinion, the best machine in the Mac line that apple will ever make. After adding color last year I think I am set for the next few years. ******* >I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page >monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in >getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid? >What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale >monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be, >well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors? I use the Apple 13" color monitor with a Micron card in my SE/30 and love it. Most applications don't suffer, speedwise, and on those rare occasions when there is a significant speed impact (like when I'm using Word with a 256 point TrueType font, which slows down scrolling considerably) I just use "PixelFlipper" to drop down to 1-bit color. >Are there any accelerator/8-bit combo cards for an SE/30 out there? >Or will I have to choose between speeding up my Mac or looking at >a color screen? This I don't know, but I know that some types of cards do provide a slot so that you aren't left without one. ******* I am using the RasterOps 264 card for the SE/30 which is a 24 bit card. I also use a RasterOps MediaTime card on my IIx, also a 24bit color card. while the SE/30 and the IIx are basically the same box, the SE/30-RasterOps card is still faster when running in 256 colors or in millions of colors since there is no slow nubus. I would say go for any color card for the SE/30 and the RasterOps is nice, though pricey. ******* I think the most relevant question is "how slow is your se/30 now?" I've found with an LC that only programs that run real slow or use graphics tons are that much slower at 8-bit. Using a depth-switcher (I think depth gauge is the best, unless it's depth charge) makes this process easy and it speeds things up. Games are the only things that have been real significant for me, with sound also being a factor. I'd suggest you go for the colour - the difference is amazing. Cost is a factor, but going for something with at least the option for later is a real good idea. Just an opinion. ******* To quickly answer your question: NO, having colro does not slow down your SE/30 cpu performance. I don't know where this myth came from, but they are certainly untrue from my experience. In any case, let me attach a summary I made up of my experiences in choosing a color setup last November. Hopefully, this will give you another option in the color setup for the SE/30. Let me know if you have any further questions. (this is going to be long, but hopefully informative) Fellow netters! Many people have posted inquiries about color solutions on the SE/30, and I have sent many individual responses to people. I have decided that it would be in the best interest of the net for me to post a summary of what I decided on: The Sony 1304 and the Lapis Colorserver PDS30-17. Before I begin, I would like to thank all of the people who helped me make my decision last November, especially Meric Ozcan who introduced me to the Lapis card. Also, all of these opinions are wholly my own; Stanford doesn't pay me enough to have rights to my opinions. In the same spirit, I have no association with Sony and Lapis except being a satisfied customer. PRICE: This is what I paid, your mileage may vary: $579 Sony 1304 monitor $400 Lapis Colorserver PDS30-17 with an academic discount (if I goof and say 14 instead of 17 later in this posting, please excuse me. I mean the same thing. Lapis recently changed the name of the card since it now supports the 16"/17" monitors...more on that later) Currently, I have seen the Sony for as low as $568 (Fry's Electronics in the SF Bay area) and the Lapis for $379 at MacLand (They advertise in MacWorld, but I don't know how reputable they are...) THE SONY 1304 I think there has been a lot said about this monitor so I will keep my comments to the minimum. I think the Sony has a good picture and is a very nice combination with the Lapis card since it can be used at three different resolutions. I would have to agree that the blacks aren't as "sharp" as those on the Apple RGB , but I think this is due to the built-in anti-glare filter which I think is a nice feature. The dot pitch is .25 mm like the Apple RGB, and has the Trinitron tube. For me, I chose it over the Apple because of: price, multi-synching ability of the Sony, 1" greater diagonal image, built-in tilt and swivel stand.) I think the picture is very close the quality of the Apple's and this again, is probably due to the anti-glare filter. THE LAPIS COLORSERVER PDS30/17 I chose this card over the Micron Xceed 30 at the very last moment after talking to Meric and seeing his setup (also with a Sony 1304). The advantages of this card over the Micron is that it can run in different modes (resolutions) and was available for purchase immediately (the Micron was backorder about 8 weeks when I was ordering in November...does anyone know what it is now?). I think the advantages of the Micron are its price ($279 from many mail order houses) and it ranks about 7% faster than the Lapis according to the Speedometer 3.05 program...whether this is a good indication of video performance, I will let you judge...oh,the overall score for the Lapis was 1.45 running System 7 on my SE/30 versus the 1.55 stated for an SE/30 with the Micron Xceed card. I think the major motivation for buying the Lapis card is its versatility. Not only can it be used with a wide variety of monitors, but also with in a number of modes, as is the case with my Sony. The setup works in that the Lapis card has a programmable ROMwhich gets written too each time the machine is restarted. (another small drawback: because the ROM must be written to by a INIT, the external monitor cannot serve as the "startup screen" (ie, Welcome to Macintosh, smiley mac, and color startup screen). The way one changes modes is that they go the monitors cdev which is "piggybacked" by the Colorserver INIT/control panel. When one clicks on the options button, they can choose from the following: Apple RGB (640x480) Apple Portrait (640x872) VGA (640x480) at 60,68,77, and 86 hz SVGA (800x600) at 56,62,70 hz 16/17" monitor (832x624) I have found that all VGA and SVGA modes work on my monitor, so I just choose the highest refresh rates. These modes allow the card to work with a number of monitors from the IBM world. One thing I would like to point out is that there is no 72 hz SVGA mode. If I understand correctly, VESA (some video standard group) has agreed that Super VGA (800x600) is supposed to be at 72 hz. Why Lapis does not give this as an option, I don't know. I have written them to check into this, so there might be a future software update to allow this refresh rate as an option. The reasonI mention this is that, some SVGA monitors only synch at 72 hz, and therefore, won't work with the Lapis card at this time. In any case, the Sony 1304 does just fine with these rates sinceit can vertically synch from 50 hz up to 87 hz. Also, after getting a new EPROM from them (sent absolutely free),my Sony also can be fooled into thinking that it is a 16"/17" monitor (like the E Machine monitors and the New Apple monitor); hence, I can also run in 832x624 mode. I don't know what the synch rate on this one is, but on the Sony, it works, and there is not flicker whatsoever. Some of you might be wondering what kind of dot density is achieved at these modes, so here they are from my experience with the Sony 1304: 640x480 at 64 dpi 800x600 at 78 dpi 832x624 at 85 dpi None of these are WYSIWYG resolutions, but 72 dpi can be achieved by playing with the potentiometers on the side of the Sony (change vertical and horizontal image size and position) to achieve this in 640x480 mode. SETTING IT UP: Lapis does a nice job at making connection with different monitors easy. The card comes with two "pin-out cables" (ie, cables that connect to the card and are passed out the back of the SE/30): one for the Apple type connector, and one for VGA type connectors. So, I chose the VGA one, and it hooks directly to the Cable that came with the 1304...no adaptors necessary! Installation was simple, and the set-up in the manual was very clear. It doesn't require any removal of the mother board or anything. Just plug it in, connect the cable, bunch out the plastic on the back of your SE/30, secure the card with the provided plastic rivets, and your are done within 15 minutes. TECHNICAL SUPPORT: This is a smaller company than SuperMac or Rasterops, but the guy I have dealt with, Jeff Marks, is a wonderful help. The first card they sent me didn't seem to work in 2-bit (4 color mode). I called him, and he sent me a new card. Yes, I didn't have to return the "almost-working" card until I had received the new one. Nice service. The new one worked fine. As mentioned above, I also got a new EPROM from him. I had heard that the card was capable of supporting 16/17" monitors. and thought that I might be able to drive the Sony in the 832x624 mode. Well, I called him, and he said that he would send me the latest software, and that my EPROM might need replacing. Well, he was right, and sent me the EPROM, free of charge. SYSTEM 7 COMPATIBLE The card is fully system 7 compatible and the latest driver is 32-bit clean (version 3.0: again, Jeff Marks gladly sent me this for free). I have run it with many applications and it has worked flawlessly. As I mentioned before, the only bummer is not making the external the "startup screen," but that is worth the abilities of the programmable ROM. I think the only complain I had with Lapis is that it took them a few days to ship my card out once my order was filled. I think this is due to them being a small company with a not very sophisticated shipping department. Then again, if you order from MacLand, you might encounter something different. Okay, I guess that is about it. I know this was long, but hopefully it will be of use to some of you. I think the Lapis card and Sony 1304 make a very nice color setup on an SE/30 and recommend it highly. If something is unclear in my discussion, or there are any individual questions, feel free to send me email. ----Derek Fong fong@cive.stanford.edu thewho@leland.stanford.edu ******* I helped my roommate upgrade his SE/30 with a Micron XCEED 8-bit color card last semester, and he was worried about the same thing: speed. The color card is generally somewhat faster in displaying black and white than the stock SE/30, and is much faster than a IIsi at displaying color. I'd rank its color performance about neck and neck with a IIci, in fact. In some special cases, it's faster than 1-bit, because the Mac doesn't have to dither color images to black and white. In short: this card is terrific, and I won't hesitate in recommending it to anyone, if they have the money to spend on color. We bought the card for about 300, and a Mirror/Goldstar monitor for 420 or so. The Mirror isn't as bright as the Apple 13" or equivalent Trinitron types, but it still looks great. ******* Glad to be of help. Good luck with your search for color. All I can say is that when it comes to the very end when you end up getting it, you are going to LOVE it. Oh, one more note on speed of things having the monitor attached: Speedometer says cpu performance is same with and without screen. 1 bit mode on the external monitor is 2+ times faster than it is on the internal. (1.46 accordin to Speedometer)...I think as it works out, the speed on the internal monitor is about the same in drawing as 4-bit mode on my Lapis card (like scrolling through a document)... Again, good luck...let me know what you end up deciding on. ******* >I have an SE/30, and was considering buying a full-page or two-page >monochrome monitor. Recently, however, I've been more interested in >getting an 8-bit color or grey-scale monitor. Am I being stupid? >What I mean is, will hooking up an 8-bit color or grey-scale >monitor to my SE/30 make it sooooo sssllllooooowwwwwww that I'd be, >well, STUPID for doing so? Should I consider only 1-bit monitors? Color works quite well on an SE/30. I recommend the RasterOps Colorboard 264. The Apple monitor is the best available, but the most expensive. ******* >Thanks very much for taking the time to respond to my query. And I'll >remember not to use 256 point TT fonts too often ;) Glad to help. By the way, my color SE/30 system performs wonderfully with stuff like 256-color arcade games, After Dark modules, etc. One thing you might want to consider, but this is just a general consideration for anyone thinking of getting a color monitor: if you're mainly going to be using it for B&W applications like word processing or whatever, you might want to consider getting either a monochrome or grey-scale monitor. B&W stuff looks a bit better on a non-color tube. ******* THE END *******